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Thread: Best copywriter

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    Best copywriter

    I got to read many many marketing experts in recent months.

    I learnt a lot about lead generation, conversion tactics, product creation and automation.

    The only thing I avoided was learning copywriting.

    The reason was that I believed with poor copywriting I could do more harm that good.

    Some techniques if they are too aggresive may yield us more money short-term and it hurts my brand long-term.

    This is the thing with Dan Kennedy. I love his strategic thinking but when I read his sales letter I can't help feeling like an idiot.

    I feel like I am tricked.

    For some time I have been searching for good copywriter to learn from that is subtle.

    I could not find one so I strated just to pay attention to emails I receive from all this experts.

    And here are top 3 (random order)

    1) Perry Marshall
    2) Charles Kirkland
    3) Ryan Deiss

    My questions are::

    1) Do they have any copwriting courses? ( I know Perry have Adwords copywriting but it is not the same thing)
    2) Who else is good?

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    And please dont mention Gary Halbert, I am not a fan.

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    The best copywriters I know of is:
    Joe sugarman
    Drayton bird
    Mark pescetti
    Craig Garber

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    Also, it's not about being a "fan". It's about understanding why they said what they said and not just focusing on what they said. Your focusing on the words instead of focusing on why they said it

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    For copy with less hype (at least on the surface) check out Makepeace and Bencivenga. They construct hook little different, not necceserily big-benifit based.
    I think it also has to do with their market sophistication (health and finance newsletters). Lots of IM hooks (including Glazier-Kennedy's DK) are newbie targeted, promising mountains of gold and quick solutions.
    In GI we have few members with quite a deep knowledge of copywriting, I'd love to hear from them.
    Last edited by ptrrud; 01-15-2015 at 04:06 PM.

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    Best on your posts you aren't looking for a good copywriter. You are looking for one YOU like. That's a very personal choice.

    All good copywriters do what you don't like. At least all GOOD ones do. Of course it is market specific, but generally you aren't gonna get too many sales being subtle.

    Dan Kennedy is among a handful of the best living copywriters today. That's based on getting results, not on anything else.

    It's also important to keep in mind that Dan is writing for a very specific niche, that you may not resonate with.

    The most understated but good copywriter IMHO is Bob Bly. Especially his work in B2B. I also agree about Bencivenga too.

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    zbr5,

    it may help us to know what market(s) you are targeting.

    that way, we are in a better position to be more certain of a recommendation.

    DK has always been clear that he stays within a few niches only.

    Far from a weakness, that is a strength.

    So, who are your hungry fish?

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    The best copywriters I know of is:
    Joe sugarman
    Drayton bird
    Mark pescetti
    Craig Garber
    Thanks. I only know J.Sugarman for this list. I have his books and I find them a bit outdated. He wrote them when it was common to write A4 page ads in newspepper.

    However, I like his "slippery slope" theory for e-mail communication. It is why I respect Perry M, Ryan D and Charles K - they start with something very interesting and before I realize I read whole e-mail ending up wanting to buy something what they offer at the end of this e-mail



    Quote Originally Posted by smith212845 View Post
    Best on your posts you aren't looking for a good copywriter. You are looking for one YOU like. That's a very personal choice.
    Yes, thats more accurate.

    This is my personal choice and I know there is plenty of people now online that have preference about it similiar to mine.\

    If I see very long sales letter with big bold red sentences every few paragraphs, I won't buy even if product is 100% valid.

    Also, as someone said in this thread "promising mountains of gold and quick solutions" it's not my prefered method.



    All good copywriters do what you don't like. At least all GOOD ones do. Of course it is market specific, but generally you aren't gonna get too many sales being subtle.
    Not sure about it. The ones that I mentioned in first post do what I like and they make some money off it.

    The most understated but good copywriter IMHO is Bob Bly. Especially his work in B2B. I also agree about Bencivenga too.
    I know a bit about Bob Bly, I have his book but I have never seen his copy in action Thanks, will look.

    For copy with less hype (at least on the surface) check out Makepeace and Bencivenga. They construct hook little different, not necceserily big-benifit based.
    Thanks, sounds very interesting. Will check this out.

    So, who are your hungry fish?
    I tell people where to invest to make money (monthly subscription)

    Also, I have online MS Excel course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptrrud View Post
    For copy with less hype (at least on the surface) check out Makepeace and Bencivenga.
    Can you give me links please?

    I never heard of them

    Edit: I found Bencivenga
    Last edited by zbr5; 01-16-2015 at 03:01 PM.

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    Outdated?? Selling is selling. Period. Markets may change with time but psychology doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    Thanks. I only know J.Sugarman for this list. I have his books and I find them a bit outdated.
    As Dan Kennedy says: "There is gold in the old".

    Cudos to TonyMichael for his post as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    However, I like his "slippery slope" theory for e-mail communication.
    You see, you have already started to convince yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    I tell people where to invest to make money (monthly subscription)

    Also, I have online MS Excel course.
    For the first market, I doubt you want hype. Slow and steady transfer of trust and suspension of disbelief sounds about right.

    Is it a newsletter, a stock-picking service, penny-stock, philosophy, politics, technology-watch / pre-IPO, emerging markets, etc.? The answers all have huge effects on how you present yourself.

    Look at how your 5 biggest competitors do it. Then look at the biggest players in UNRELATED filed who sell to YOUR market how they do it. This should give you some clues as to what generally is working.

    Sure you can innovate, but first learn the rules before you break them.

    As for the MS-Excel course, you can be much more relaxed and try out tons of stuff in various markets and formats. Again, depending on your specific angle (Excel for newbies, killer equations for financial pros, etc.), FB &/or LI may be huge fishing ponds for you.

    Hope this helps.

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    Joe Sugarman's matieral is far from being outdated...it's timeless.

    Based on your comments I think you're biggest challenge is forgetting this simple wisdom:

    You Aren't Your Market.

    Your personal opinions are irrelevant, if you care about maximizing sales.

    However, I think we are mostly saying the same thing.

    ALL good copywriters know how to sell and construct persuasive arguments, WITHOUT the screaming hype.

    However, you are lumping 2 things together: hype and long sales letters.

    You may personally not like long sales letters, but they still work very well.
    Last edited by smith212845; 01-18-2015 at 08:27 PM.

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    Let re-phrase my question and ask it again.

    E-mails from what experts you like reading?

    I have big respect for J.S and G.H and their ads that look like this:
    https://www.google.pl/search?q=sugar...w=1760&bih=845

    But I would like to find out your opinion what experts you respect. Not the ones that you believe they make most money but the ones that you open and read.

    Modern, online experts.

    PS: Thanks a lot iamwaytootall for advice, this was helpful.

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    Dude, I never said anything about the copywriters I mentioned
    making the most money.

    You wanna know what copywriters I respect?

    I already mentioned them.

    It doesn't matter if they wrote a DM package, advertorial, or email...

    ...copy is copy.

    As for "email copywriters" ... check out Ben Settle and Daniel Levis.

    --Tony
    Last edited by TonyMichael; 01-22-2015 at 08:21 PM.

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    I think he's responding to my previous comment, about great copywriters getting results in terms of money.

    There is a direct correlation between copy that is "read and opened" AND response and results...thus income derived from the copy, and this tends to be reflective of the copywriters earnings as well as the sales generated from the copy.

    Respect is a different story. You would need to specify what your criteria is for respect. I don't think there is a correlation between respect and ability . Respect has to do with other things such as values and standards.

    That's why I tend to focus more on results, rather than copy I like, or copywriters I "respect."

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    That's interesting that you like Ryan Deiss. I have been learning from his authorityroi course (accessed through a friend) and I much prefer his speaking to his writing. I prefer a bit more candid, self-effacing writer like Ramit Sethi. It feels a bit more real and relatable to me. What resonates with me is something that reads like authentic, excited speech. Like if I were telling you about something I really am passionate about, but I transcribed it onto paper.

    It's important to keep in mind that what type of copy works will be different depending on your niche... I still don't understand how regular people don't run away from most long form, in-your-face, shiny graphics sales copy. Most of the time I skip over it to look at how much it costs in the end and then leave because it reads scammy to me.

    In my niche (dog training), I've discovered that many of the dog training books are extremely dry. Not a lot of easy-to-understand or interesting writing there. That's what formal dog trainers like. Your average owner, though, wants something more engaging that will make them excited about training and makes it fun and easy rather than step by step in-depth. Really, you just need to know what type of speaking gets your audience engaged and write that way.

    It might help to look at the books that are top sellers or videos on YouTube that have lots of views in your niche to see what engages the audience. Then read/watch some of it before you write... that's kind of my "process" when I'm writing blog posts.

    A lot of copywriting for squeeze and landing pages is trial and error. I've found that the website unbounce is pretty helpful for learning what types of things to try in your sales page copy and how to test them. You might check them out if you're interested in that type of sales copy.

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    Yes, I also liked Justin Brooke comment he posted today on Facebook "A pushy salesman is a rookie salesman. They haven't learned the art of the takeaway or power positioning or deal filtration yet.

    Any hack can bully the money out of someone or dial for dollars. But a pro knows how to be efficient and smooth."

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    Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Ted Nicholas and Dan Kennedy

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    Study John Carlton and Gary Halbert. Two of the best that ever were. Write out by hand John Carlton's sales letters.

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    Ive always used Dan Kennedy for my sales copy! Awesome copywriter!

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