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    Yawn. These are all the same old, same old copywriters.

    How about someone who's not trying to sell themselves as a guru?

    Have a look at Josh Manheimer.

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    What a jaded and idiotic comment. Tantamount to saying yawn of Michael Jordan when it comes to basketball.

    People often become very well known because of their outstanding skills.

    I would much rather study/learn from someone who has years of experience who has a proven track record. Not to say that their aren't plenty of other great writers out there, but why not learn from the best.

    I don't think Josh is among the best. He is a very mainstream writer, who is confined to many limitations given the type of clients he has.

    Frankly, anyone who has to shout to the world "world's greatest direct mail writer" is not an expert at the subtle art of persuasion.
    Last edited by smith212845; 06-10-2015 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comehereboy View Post

    It's important to keep in mind that what type of copy works will be different depending on your niche... I still don't understand how regular people don't run away from most long form, in-your-face, shiny graphics sales copy. Most of the time I skip over it to look at how much it costs in the end and then leave because it reads scammy to me.
    MOST people do run away from most long form copy. That is the nature of direct marketing. You aren't looking for MOST. You are looking for the few that are BUYERS.

    Most marketers focus so much on the psychology/emotion/copy....that they are completely blind to the other, equally important part: the numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smith212845 View Post
    What a jaded and idiotic comment.
    Get back when you are better at discussing and expressing your opinions.

    You are out of here for 5 days.
    I'm here to learn and serve, and you are here to learn. If it's not the case for you or for me, then someone should leave.

    Therefore, No excuses are accepted neither from you nor from me.

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    I may be late in this convo.. but for what it's worth.. In MY opinion the best copywriters are Clayton Makepeace (amazing conversions on cold traffic)... Frank Kern (bad ass with NLP in written format), and Bencivenga.. (fantastic on warm traffic). I'm not trash talking anyone but some names that you think are very good, actually outsource their writing.. I won't say who does their writing b/c I'm pretty sure you would be surprised but the 3 I've mentioned do their OWN writing and that's why I admire them.
    Last edited by Aiza; 07-24-2015 at 04:17 AM.
    Never arm wrestle with a man who's been single for more than 2 months.

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    The best copywriters I know of is:
    Joe sugarman
    Drayton bird
    Mark pescetti
    Craig Garber
    Bahahaahah! I see what you did there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiza View Post
    I may be late in this convo.. but for what it's worth.. In MY opinion the best copywriters are Clayton Makepeace (amazing conversions on cold traffic)... Frank Kern (bad ass with NLP in written format), and Bencivenga.. (fantastic on warm traffic). I'm not trash talking anyone but some names that you think are very good, actually outsource their writing.. I won't say who does their writing b/c I'm pretty sure you would be surprised but the 3 I've mentioned do their OWN writing and that's why I admire them.
    I totally agree.

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    OK guys, i want to come back to this thread that I started long time ago.

    Meanwhile I researched a lot and I learned a lot and this is what I think.

    I'm highly sceptical that legends like Halbert would be very successful these days with their methods. The wording is very direct, aggresive and hypey for modern audience, in my opinion at least.
    It's like everyone say that Brazil had amazing soccer team in 1960s with Pele, that it was the best team in the history. This is true, they were amazing. But if they were to play with 2016 FC Barcelona team they would lose 10-0. Everything evolves.

    Personally I hate when someone make claims and doesn't give any proof of demonstration, case study etc. I hear claims every day like "with this method you will make plenty of money", or more elaborate version of it "with this strategy your company will increase ROI by 112%". Maybe it will, maybe it won't .

    Copywriting that is recommened by old legends is not only hypey, but also boring because you know for a fact they want to trick from the very first word to buy their things even if ithey think they are subtle about it. Often they treat you like an idiot.

    If you want to study very effective modern copywriting, get on the lists of people who do it every day iin 2016, that run huge online campaigns for themselves and clients.

    There are not many of them that do it well: Justin Brooke, Perry Marshall, Andre Chaperon, Peter Parks, Charles Kirkland

    They merge story with demonstrations, credibility, case studies, benefits.

    Just my 2 cents of a very unpopular opinion, Take it or leave it, it's up to you.
    Last edited by zbr5; 02-19-2016 at 09:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    OK guys, i want to come back to this thread that I started long time ago.

    Meanwhile I researched a lot and I learned a lot and this is what I think.

    I'm highly sceptical that legends like Halbert would be very successful these days with their methods. The wording is very direct, aggresive and hypey for modern audience, in my opinion at least.
    It's like everyone say that Brazil had amazing soccer team in 1960s with Pele, that it was the best team in the history. This is true, they were amazing. But if they were to play with 2016 FC Barcelona team they would lose 10-0. Everything evolves.

    Personally I hate when someone make claims and doesn't give any proof of demonstration, case study etc. I hear claims every day like "with this method you will make plenty of money", or more elaborate version of it "with this strategy your company will increase ROI by 112%". Maybe it will, maybe it won't .

    Copywriting that is recommened by old legends is not only hypey, but also boring because you know for a fact they want to trick from the very first word to buy their things even if ithey think they are subtle about it. Often they treat you like an idiot.

    If you want to study very effective modern copywriting, get on the lists of people who do it every day iin 2016, that run huge online campaigns for themselves and clients.

    There are not many of them that do it well: Justin Brooke, Perry Marshall, Andre Chaperon, Peter Parks, Charles Kirkland

    They merge story with demonstrations, credibility, case studies, benefits.

    Just my 2 cents of a very unpopular opinion, Take it or leave it, it's up to you.
    I have the same opinion. Recently I have watched one of the Todd Brown courses about creating successful sales funnels... He talked a little bit about copywriting and sth he called sophistication of given market. The more sophisticated the market the less susceptible to hype methods - simply because they were attacked by them from the long time. But like you said, everything evolves - creating salesfunnels, copywriting, football or science. Our job is to adapt to new environment as soon as we can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    Personally I hate when someone make claims and doesn't give any proof of demonstration, case study etc.
    Isn't that what you've done with this post?


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    Your username sounds Polish, are you Polish QbuS?

    Yes, and the adaptation comes down mainly to being hype-free.

    The most important lesson that I learnt is that there is a difference between saying something and conveying something.

    When you say something, you say something.

    When you convey something, you don't say anything directly, you merely imply so the reader deducts it on his own (often subconsously).

    So the belief comes from him, not from outside. He has never been persuaded, he DECIDED.

    This opens up the whole discussion of positioning/branding versus direct response. Those in direct response who mock and throw away branding do a big disservice to themselves.

    Example: someone opts in for a lead magnet and is presented with tripwire and then with un upsell. Direct response marketer will make more money because 8% will buy upsell and 8% is more than 0 (if he didn't have any tripwire right away). BUT !!! He will hurt his brand! Ouf of 92% who didn't buy, 50% will be resenful that he tried to sell something that quickly and that aggresively and they won't bother checking his emails. I'm one of this persons when someone tries to sell me something right away on the tahnk you page.

    Second example: the other marketer offers a lead magnet, but on the thank you page he gives even more, maybe unadvertised bonus. He won't make any money but he will improve relationship (improve his branding and positioning) and he will make 10x money off the relationships with clients that direct response marketer will (long term).

    Everyone should think how the particular step in sales funnel affect my brand. You can add red border around your Facebook ad to get 0.5% higher CTR but it will hurt your brand. No sophisticated businessman, your potential perfect client with big budget will click your ad. So this is big sacrify to get extra 0.5% CTR

    Ryan Deiss starts getting it because he mentioned merge of direct response and branding in current T&C but 99% will still screw this up for long
    Last edited by zbr5; 02-19-2016 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kfk2003 View Post
    Isn't that what you've done with this post?
    Haha, yes I've done. But it was not a copywriting piece. I don't have any business in convincing anyone, just some random thoughts. I don't make any promises.

    I could probably prepare many case studies to support my points, but it takes plenty of time and I just wanted to ramble a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    Haha, yes I've done. But it was not a copywriting piece. I don't have any business in convincing anyone, just some random thoughts. I don't make any promises.
    You've made huge claims and not supported them.

    On my desk right now I've got the John Caples classic "Tested Advertising Methods" and the Victor Schwab classic "How To Write A Good Advertisement", both written before I was born.

    The second example in Caples's book is a story-based ad.

    The third chapter in Schwab's book is called "Prove It".

    Both are "old legends" as you put it, arguably the greatest old legends.

    Neither's recommendations lead you to write copy that is hypey, boring, or tries to trick you.


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    I have studied Caples, Hopkins, Gene Schwarz, Victor Schwab and I have great respect for them.

    I'm trying to stay open-minded and take what works for me and throw away what doesn't, regardless if people label someone as the legend or not.

    I love all the copywriters above but don't like Halbert's, Carlton's, Dan Kennedy's style. Find it too pushy for 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbr5 View Post
    I have studied Caples, Hopkins, Gene Schwarz, Victor Schwab and I have great respect for them.
    Claiming they teach hypey, boring copy that tries to trick the reader and treat them like an idiot is odd way to show your "great respect".

    And it's completely wrong. You're misguiding people.

    I called you on your claim and you've not been able to back it up, despite saying you hate it when other people do that.


    I'm trying to stay open-minded and take what works for me and throw away what doesn't, regardless if people label someone as the legend or not.
    You made a specific claim. You've not supported it. You're still not supporting it. That's all.

    Trying to change tack without tackling this seems an awful lot like you're trying to trick me and treat me like an idiot. Something else I thought you hated.

    And claiming you're open-minded and only want to know what works is a language trick in itself as it implies that I do not.


    I love all the copywriters above but don't like Halbert's, Carlton's, Dan Kennedy's style. Find it too pushy for 2016
    Kennedy's still writing, and Halbert and Carlton were writing copy well into the 2000s (maybe Carlton still does) meaning I don't think any qualify as "old legends".

    And whether you find it to be pushy or not is irrelevant. Their copy worked, and still works, for their markets.

    If you're not in their markets, you don't need to copy their approach.

    The likes of biz-op are far from the only area where skilled long-form copywriters ply their trade.


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    Arrogant people with a strong need to be right, with emotions attached to it, are usually not good copywriters.

    And these kinds of arguments are silly because everyone has a different opinion or perspective.

    When it comes to copywriting the best thing is to bring in a specific example and have the concrete numbers to back it up.

    Even then, speculating as to why or why not it didn't work is pointless because it's impossible to really know exactly why something did what it did.

    And that's not even getting to the strategy behind it.

    That's why it's always a giant mistake to criticize copy without being intimately familiar with the inside of that business and all the numbers and history that go into what they are trying to do. Even something as simple as not knowing what their outcome was for the piece can change things quite a bit. (It's not always to make a profit)

    I would also add that it's kind of ridiculous to generalize. As in ALL of Halbert, Kennedy, etc. Pick a specific example to talk about. Trying to generalize all of a copywriters work into one massive generalization like that is idiotic.

    I do like to see this kind of thing though. People studying copywriting who really don't have a clue. It demonstrates how deceptively complex it truly is to understand at a deep level. And how much opportunity their is for those who are open minded, listen to those with more experience than themselves, and stick with it.
    Last edited by smith212845; 02-19-2016 at 04:35 PM.

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  28. #38

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    Sorry, Zbr5, I'm not posting in this thread again as Smith has turned up. So feel free to ignore my comments.

    EDIT - Damn, looks like I'm going to have to.
    Last edited by kfk2003; 02-19-2016 at 05:10 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kfk2003 View Post
    Claiming they teach hypey, boring copy that tries to trick the reader and treat them like an idiot is odd way to show your "great respect".
    Where did i write anything bad about these men? Don't put something I never said in my mouth.

    And it's completely wrong. You're misguiding people.
    I'm not guiding anyone, nor misguiding. Just sharing my views that if you copy Halbert or some old legends without adapting to the modern audiences and their expectations, you might be doing yourself a disservice.

    I am opening a debate, isn't it the FORUM where we are now?

    I called you on your claim and you've not been able to back it up, despite saying you hate it when other people do that.
    I tried to back up my claim by doing a lenghty post on branding and hype.

    I don't have any business in convicing anyone, I don't write commercial copy so don't expect me to write lenght elaborates just for you.

    I said i hate unbacked claims and promises in copywriting, no? Do you like them?

    And claiming you're open-minded and only want to know what works is a language trick in itself as it implies that I do not.
    It may also imply that there are many people who aren't open-minded and simply copy 1960s style of direct mail copy even tough we can be more subtle and soft about it because we have email, retargeting and other multi-step methods to advance readers.

    I see this crappy copy all over the internet so I want to suggest to everyone to be open-minded and learn from some modern experts like Perry Marshall or Justin Brooke. They learnt hugely from Hopkins, Schwarz etc by the way, but they ADAPTED.

    If you take my implication personally, that wasn't my intention but I can't do anything about it.

    Kennedy's still writing, and Halbert and Carlton were writing copy well into the 2000s (maybe Carlton still does) meaning I don't think any qualify as "old legends".
    This is your definition. For me all of them are old legends in comparison to people I prefer to model, that all have thriving digital business models.

    Don't impose your definion on me because it will lead to misunderstanding.

    For me they all are old legends, and some of them are classy and educated and worth modelling like Hopkins, and some are boring and hypey FOR ME.

    You don't have to agree with me, you don't have to love me but I want to have right to share my opinion. The others may contemplate it and agree with me even if you don't.

    And whether you find it to be pushy or not is irrelevant. Their copy worked, and still works, for their markets.
    I don't doubt it works, but I think copy of modern internet guys that I mentioned is way better in 2016 and thus much more worthy modeling.

    If you're not in their markets, you don't need to copy their approach.
    Yes, and I won't thanks.


    Arrogant people with a strong need to be right, with emotions attached to it, are usually not good copywriters.

    And these kinds of arguments are silly because everyone has a different opinion or perspective.
    Exactly, it's why there is no point in attacking me.

    My message was basically: "Guys, don't copy old legends blindly because audiences change quickly thanks to internet. Learn from modern, successful guys too - they are soft and interesting and as much persuasive"

    Someone can disagree, but there is no point in arguing or attacking me. One likes apples, the other likes bananas. Does it mean anyone is right or wrong?

    That's why it's always a giant mistake to criticize copy without being intimately familiar with the inside of that business and all the numbers and history that go into what they are trying to do. Even something as simple as not knowing what their outcome was for the piece can change things quite a bit. (It's not always to make a profit)

    I would also add that it's kind of ridiculous to generalize. As in ALL of Halbert, Kennedy, etc. Pick a specific example to talk about. Trying to generalize all of a copywriters work into one massive generalization like that is idiotic.

    I do like to see this kind of thing though. People studying copywriting who really don't have a clue. It demonstrates how deceptively complex it truly is to understand at a deep level. And how much opportunity their is for those who are open minded, listen to those with more experience than themselves, and stick with it.
    OK, cool

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    The OP said take it or leave it so I'll leave it. Completely disagree.

    This comment is spot on though from Smith212845, "I do like to see this kind of thing though. People studying copywriting who really don't have a clue. It demonstrates how deceptively complex it truly is to understand at a deep level. And how much opportunity their is for those who are open minded, listen to those with more experience than themselves, and stick with it."

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